Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: Welcome to emotional sobriety, the next step in Recovery. With Dr. Alan Berger and Tom Rutledge
[00:00:15] Speaker C: found the first version of the Nutshells. It was my second book. It was called if I Were They. And it's, you know, it's like they
[00:00:21] Speaker A: say, I think I have a copy. Yeah.
[00:00:23] Speaker C: Yeah, it's like, it's very. It's very rare these days, but I got very cool. A used copy of it. I thought, man, there's still some of these in here that I use. So it's pretty cool.
[00:00:32] Speaker A: Yeah, very good. There's a lot of good ones in there.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: There was a nutshell that Tom sent the other day that really struck me. He said, or it said, you cannot work both sides of the Serenity Prayer. Choose, commit.
[00:00:44] Speaker C: I write most all of these for myself when I need them. So it's. But it's something we all try to do sometimes.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: But what does that mean, to work both sides of the Serenity Prayer?
[00:00:56] Speaker C: Well, let me act like a therapist for a minute. What did it mean to you?
Why did it strike you?
[00:01:03] Speaker B: I suppose because I often operate with some degree of denial about like what I can change, what I can't change, what my agency is, how long do I beat my fists against the concrete or am I folding too early?
And I think I operate best in this world when I have those details straight, you know, and when I'm in some. Some degree of alignment with. Yes.
[00:01:35] Speaker C: And so that's it. You. I mean, I mean, I think it's. Any of these things are meant to be thought provoking, so they're whatever they mean to an individual. But for. Yeah, for me that's similar. That basically most of the time we're talking to people about how don't get into black and white or all or non thinking, but things I control and things I cannot control.
It's kind of an exception to that rule. It's like if I'm putting energy into something that I definitely do not control, like you or Alan or another person or situation, that's energy and attention that does not go to the other side of the Serenity Prayer, which is accepting and courage and moving on.
So it's like. And I do think that. And it's amazing how often to me the Idea has only 72.
It's only in the last probably year that I've realized, oh, I know the Serenity Prayer. I've been saying the Serenity Prayer, but I'm not sure I've been really paying attention to the Serenity Prayer. What it really says and it's like.
And when we do get that, it streamlines everything because, I mean. And I'll never accomplish this. I'm not. This is not my goal because I'm not going to make. Make it perfect. But if I can. If I can actually rearrange my allotment of energy so that my energy just goes to things I actually have some. Some agency or some power over, I've got a lot of extra energy that I. That I don't use. I have. I have lived my life without. Because I got those wheels turning, those saboteurs in my head telling me to be worried about all kinds of things that I don't have any control about.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: What jumped into my head was working the steps. And, you know, my first few years of sobriety, there are a couple loved ones that I had that weren't ready to talk to me yet or weren't ready to open up, you know, their boundaries in order to make, you know, have some kind of relationship with me. And that was a bitter pill to swallow for a little while, especially because, you know, at a certain point I started to tell. Look around at my life and things are getting better. And, you know, I felt that I was getting better. And so why wouldn't you want to hang out with me and take my calls at this point? And anyway, when I was finally able to work my way around to accepting that, like, I don't have control of the clock over this.
And so the things I can change in that event are really work on the relationships that I have and work on, you know, my conduct as a person and just be the kind of person that, you know, that, you know, if maybe not those individuals that others would want to be with and, you know, and then. And then, sure enough, you know, I mean, some of the people that I lost eventually came back into my life. Not all of them, but, you know, the thing. The thing that couldn't change was.
[00:04:32] Speaker C: Yeah, also what you're also doing there is part of the. This is something that I say to people, you know, usually people early in recovery, but there can be a different times. But early in recovery, I say, listen, you have to be ready for the. What I call the addict's karma. It's like, you know, you're going to know inside that this is different.
You know, you're going to know this. No, this is not all the times I've said this stuff before, but you got to remember, you've said it before, you've done it before, you've promised things before, and it's like, there's no reason people should trust you, you know, until time goes on and you really demonstrate that. And that's. That's the. That's the acceptance. That's that place. We. I think we talked about it recently, you know, the. The hard work of allowing. Realizing that, you know, we don't. We forever. For other people. We don't always wear the white hat. Sometimes we're the bad guy. And, you know, and a little bit coming into our recovery, we got to be able to say, like, you know, I know. I know I have not been trustworthy. It's like. And it makes. And it makes sense, and you don't have to say this to them, but for you, it makes sense that you don't trust me yet.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: But, boy, I'll tell you, Tom, that's right on. I mean, you know, a lot of times, the way that I've seen this manifest itself, like in couples, worth is the. If the guy has not developed a sense of humility yet or the gal that's in recovery, it's so hard to.
[00:05:59] Speaker C: Usually the guy.
What's that Usually the guy, sadly, for our gender.
[00:06:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. You know, because what happens is, is they, you know, one of my experiences is people, whether it's a man or a woman, feel like they're losing something if they admit that.
[00:06:17] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:06:19] Speaker A: Right. They're losing an image that they have tried to project in the world, which has really been an image to manipulate people into seeing who they really are and what's really going on. Right. It's that gaslighting. It's the, you know, the art of deception that we become so bad when we're in addiction. And to be able to own that and stand in the face of that truth and reality is such an important step in recovery. I mean, I don't think that we size that enough, because when you do that, you're not lo. Yeah, you're losing that fault, that image. But that image needs to get broken up.
That image of who you thought you had to be to be okay hasn't worked. And, you know, a big, big emotional sobriety that we've been discovering now for some time is that emotional sobriety is living different.
[00:07:18] Speaker C: What you get is even better. And I think I've learned this as much from Roger Andes as anything is. That is the idea is. No, it's because, you know, and I think we. I do this joke all the time on this podcast, but. But it's a good reminder for me, it's, you know, one of my nutshells. I have in the other room says I have to be careful not to be too proud of my humility. It's like, you know, which references. But. But it really does reference the fact that. No, actually it's better that I can feel that, that I've been. Feel good in self esteem based on the fact that I'm. I know I'm going to be wrong. I know I'm not going to be always the good. And I understand I certainly have been. And that what, what I value is my ability to do what you're talking about, which is just to simply acknowledge the reality.
[00:08:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just owning our truth, man. And owning our truth is so critical in recovery. Like you said, Tom, there is a difference between false pride and what we could call even a humble pride.
[00:08:19] Speaker C: Right.
[00:08:20] Speaker A: I think that we could distinguish, you know, and just. And discern the difference between the two. That false pride is based on, you know, being proud that you're this idealized self.
[00:08:31] Speaker C: That's it too. Basically what I've discovered along the way is, you know, other people saying nice things about you is okay, but for you to actually acknowledge something that you, that you feel good about or that you're good at, I'll always go to other nutshells. It's like it's not only okay to acknowledge when you're good at something about false pride like you're talking about, that just flies all over me when somebody, somebody's talking and they say, well, you know, I'm just, I'm just an alcoholic and I'm, you know, like, get over yourself, man. What have you been doing in the program for this long is you should be getting better and it's like you should be proud of that.
[00:09:12] Speaker B: Well, yeah.
[00:09:13] Speaker A: Apa's definition of humility as they obviously they talk about it first as being a state of being humble.
They go on to say, obviously next thing that's obvious to me was the low focus on self. But then they go on to say something that I hadn't heard described before when somebody was defining humility. And it's a, an accurate, not an over or underestimation of one's worth and success.
[00:09:40] Speaker C: Love that.
That's exactly it. That's on point.
[00:09:44] Speaker A: That's exactly, that's right on point, man. And I never heard that before. And for my definition of the definition I was exposed to never included that. So it was that thing. I, I be cautious of sharing anything I felt good about because I didn't want to look like I was all full of myself. But there is a difference, man. True self esteem is acknowledging who we are and owning it.
[00:10:09] Speaker C: Well, it's just, it's just, it's healthy confidence, basically. It's like, it's like it's not, it's not arrogant to be confident about something that you're good at. And it's not, it's not, it's not an all or none. If I'm confident, if I say somebody says, well, tell me about yourself as a therapist. And I, and I'm. And I basically letting you know that I believe in my ability to do that. I've been doing this for so long, I have a lot of confidence. Am I saying at any point in there that I, that I never make any errors or I never miss any points? Absolutely not. Of course I do. That's part of what makes me confident in my competence is because I do, I am good at acknowledging finding my. Of my faults. But I'm also good as you, as you two know. If you point it out to me, I could listen. I can accept it. That. That's a really big.
That's a. I don't know if it's a skill or just a talent or something, but to be able to do that is so important.
[00:11:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And by doing that spot check, you get better overall.
[00:11:09] Speaker A: Always.
[00:11:10] Speaker B: It just means a more detailed conversation with your peers. So I wonder if we might talk about. You said you had a client or you know, somebody you're working with. Alan, who relapsed.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: If you've relapsed. Let's talk to you. This, this program is for you today.
[00:11:26] Speaker C: Let me just get us started this way. If I'm just hypothetically putting myself in that place. One of the things I know that I historically, through knowing myself through the years, I relapse, I. I know one of the things I have to be is a healthy fear is immediately, is, is falling into hopelessness, turning on myself in that way.
I blew it.
It's over. You know, I thought I was doing good, but it turns out I'm not.
[00:11:53] Speaker B: None of us can do good all
[00:11:54] Speaker C: the time, but it feels like I, I'll just be the. I'll just be that voice for a minute, but it feels like I blew it. I mean, forever. And I'm disappointed everybody. I don't see, I don't see that there's any coming back from this.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: Yeah, see that's. We talk about this all the time is that it's, it's the meaning we give to the experience we're having.
That's the problem. It's not the problem itself. Right? It's. It's the. The. And I'm not in any way, you know, you know, sugarcoating a relapse. They're. They're dangerous. They, you know, cause serious damage to ourselves and. And to other people we care about and love. So we're not minimizing it, but what we're is. Is that, you know, when you do what Tom just said, See, when you globalize, when you say that, look. Look at what I've done. I've learned everything.
[00:12:43] Speaker C: It's over.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: Buried. Are buried underneath that perspective. It is hard to dig yourself out. It's hard to be Sisyphus pushing that rock up the mountain. And that's one of the reasons why. And even Joe Wilson said this, which I loved his perspective. He says, don't get too hung up on what you just did.
He says it happened for a reason, so get busy understanding it rather than beating yourself up and being ashamed and feeling guilty, all of that. You know, Tom said something a minute ago. There is healthy guilt, shame.
Dale about that a couple weeks ago when he was program. And that's there. But the most important thing that we've found, and this is at the core of emotional sobriety, is maturing, is learning from our experience.
You can't learn from your experience if you're beating yourself up, if you're burying yourself in a bunch of shoulds, man, I shouldn't have relapsed. I wasn't working a good program.
Doesn't mean you weren't working a good program. It just means that more was needed in your program. It's not that your program was wrong. It's just that there was something missing that was important to add to what you were doing.
[00:14:00] Speaker C: Let me. Let me add this to being in this position. It's like just having that insight that I know myself well enough to know when I was in places like that where it's a version of poor me. And it's like I'm not gonna be able to do any of that kind of stuff.
And I'm not saying that's the way to start with anybody, but what I'm doing, really, if I look closer at it, is I'm looking for a way to quit.
I'm looking. I'm looking for a way to give up because it's. It's so.
[00:14:28] Speaker A: This is. This is.
[00:14:28] Speaker C: You know, it's hard. It's like. It's easy. It's easier at that point. And again, I'm not saying I have that insight, but it's. But it's easier at that point when I've been there to just think, you know. No, I'm. I'm the. I'm the worst of the worst. And I'm. You know, I tried, and what a. What a guy for even. Even. What a guy for trying, but I just couldn't pull it off. It's like, I'm really trying. I'm really. I don't mean I'm not intending to, but I'm letting myself off the hook, see, because what Alan's saying when he talks about just the reality of that is like, you know, well, wait a minute. You didn't blow everything. You. You screwed up today. You know, And I think the other question always in that situation is to ask people, what are you afraid of? Because. Because that'll take. That'll take it down to the core of the wound. It's. It's like, you know, and it's. It's like, you know, and if I put myself in that place, I'm playing that role in my head. I'm going, what am I afraid of? I'm afraid I'm never going to be able to get this right. So we turn it around. So Alan says to me, I'm going to do your part too, Alan. It's like Alan says to me, of course you're not going to do it, right. Not every time, not always.
And it's like, because we make mistakes so we can learn. That's our job.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: That's it. That's our job. Matt, I'm right with you supporting the
[00:15:45] Speaker C: person, but I'm challenging the person, right?
[00:15:47] Speaker A: The. The other thing that I've seen that happen, it depends on when the relapse happens.
So I think it means different things at different times. Early on in recovery, it typically means that there's a reservation.
And what that means is I have not accepted at an unconscious level that I am powerless. You see, when we accept something completely and totally, there's no longer any tension around the issue.
Were completely relaxed. You could tell the degree of acceptance you have by the amount of relaxation. I don't feel anything in me about drinking or using it. There's no desire, there's no conflict. There's no part of me that says, let's go do this every now and again. You know, I like Tom, sort of tequila boy, right? Tequila boy, right? Shows up and says, hey, come on, man, that beer might be good with it. Watching that football game, but that's rare.
[00:16:47] Speaker C: But as Long as I'm doing my job to keep that separate and I'm differentiated from that, it's like I, you know, it's just sort of roll your eyes and go like, thank. Thanks. Okay. Just, you know, that's right.
[00:16:59] Speaker A: You move on. There's no tension. There's no pull towards it. But see if there's a resonance.
[00:17:04] Speaker C: This is a hard one for people to get, because how do we stay sober? It's no longer an option to not. It's no longer. It is. When somebody asked me about drinking or not drinking, using drugs or not using drugs, there is no. You're saying. There's no debate there. It's that. That's. This. What you're saying is the early relapse, the decision is not. Is not sound. You got. You got to go back in. And that's. You know, that's why I wrote that workbook called the Recovery Decision, because that's what I found was in. In talking to lots of people through the years was missing in treatment programs is people.
We're took on good treatment programs. But.
[00:17:41] Speaker A: But the.
[00:17:42] Speaker C: The smart therapist would take the role of making the decision for you, say you are an addict, instead of also asking, what do you think? Because that's when we need. That's the one we need. You know, we need the denial to show up in treatment so that we can help the client work with it and to get to the place where Alan's talking about, where it's like, yeah, I remember those days. Tequila boy. That's. That's not now.
[00:18:04] Speaker A: That's right. Not now. And see, when. That.
When it doesn't happen, there's a part of us that thinks that, you know, there'll come a day, you know, once I get on my feet and I feel okay, I can't tell you. And this. And this happens even later on in recovery. It happens a lot of times early in recovery. But I've seen people with a couple years go out because they think, you know, I've been doing pretty good. You know, a glass of wine with dinner, that can't hurt anything. Yeah, right. And then, you know, two weeks later, their wife or their partner is saying, I want a divorce. I mean.
[00:18:37] Speaker C: No, but see, that's a good point.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: Craziness is bad.
[00:18:40] Speaker C: I have an eating disorder client right now who's just done that gallon. Exactly what you described. She. She made a decision, and it was a good decision to. To a degree, because. Because she'd been going back and forth in terms of not making a strong decision about her recovery from her eating disorder and, and, and her eating disorder has proved to be pretty dangerous thing. It's like, like, and, and, but she made a decision that was based on condition. Like we talk about, it was like when my kids are older, once you say once you set the condition, the addiction inside you will change that. It's like what you said is there, we are going to do it. It is an option. And I'm just one of people. So if it's an option, your disease is going to get you there. You know, it's not an option. And that's what we have to support each other and that's what we have to remind each other of.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: Yeah, it can be a key to unlocking long term recovery. And that's what we're talking about. It's like how do we support ourselves, you know, to create a strong foundation for our recovery. And Tom's giving you some really great, you know, insight into what happens, what we have to do internally by how we need to organize ourselves to deal with, you know, our, the struggle we have with drinking and using.
[00:20:02] Speaker B: So Alan, I wanted to ask about before saying something you'd said, the reservation is a common feature in early recoverers. And then for people who've been around for a little while, what's the thing that makes them go off?
[00:20:18] Speaker A: Well, if sometimes that reservation doesn't get revealed until later too. So I don't just want to say that it, it's, it's black and white. But oftentimes later on in recovery, what we've seen when they've done research on this is that the second and third.
So the first major cause that we've been finding out with relapse is people having an experience they don't know how to cope well with. So they go back with dealing with it in a way that they've always done it. Whether it's trauma is now the pain of it is surfacing and it's a call to be dealt with and they don't know what to do with it and they drink to shut it down.
Whether sometimes it's somebody struggling with depression or anxiety and they can't get their handle on it and stuff like that. So then they drink to feel better. Right. Because it's going to relieve them.
We know relationship problems will lead to relapse later on in life. So anything that we have not. And see, this is why emotional sobriety, it really is a call for emotional sobriety because emotional sobriety gives us tools to deal with all of that chronic pain is another thing. A lot of people go out, Patrick, because they've got chronic pain. That's why I had to be so careful when I was having all these surgeries and stuff. And especially when my femur broke and the pain was so bad.
You know, I tried oxycontin a couple times and thank God my recovery took over. I didn't want to take it. I mean that. I just didn't like the feeling. And before I would love a feeling like that, I didn't like it.
You know, it's kind of like my version of, you know, touching the drink and recoiling from it. You know, I recall.
[00:22:07] Speaker C: But, but, but, but here's something I respect in you that we did as part of that too. But as. Not, not, not overconfidence. You didn't like it. But, but, but, but the truth is, as addicts, we will do things we don't like that we're addicted to. We, we. Because we're addicted to it. And so the truth is, if you didn't make that decision, I don't like it. Therefore, I'm not going to do this. I'm gonna do something different.
You would. You could have kept taking it until you liked it.
You know, it's like you don't, don't underestimate this guy. Yeah.
[00:22:39] Speaker A: I'll tell you, Tom, you're bringing up something that I have been thinking about for a while and Kabor Mate, the, you know, author, Hungry Ghost. Yeah, he's.
I just did a one day continuing education with him and it was interesting. He's. He talks about, you know, his compassionate approach to helping people that are struggling with, with addiction. And he talks about it as a failure of self. Compassion is. That's how we talked about this for a long time, is that there is something missing that the way.
There's something missing in the way that we treat ourselves and what we're willing to do to ourselves without a second thought about the harm we're doing.
Yeah, it never crosses our mind. I mean, we would not torture someone the way that we torture ourselves.
We would not. I mean, think about a parent doing to a child what we do ourselves. They'd be reported for child abuse. I mean, it's that it's our relationship with ourselves now, you know, we can get into talking about, well, what makes that so. And it's not too hard to understand that there's a part of us that just doesn't like us.
You know, that's what Dr. Horney said. She says the minute the false self is Born at that same time the despised self is born.
It's very interesting. There's these two selves, right, that come into existence at that point. Because the should demands to be the way we think we should are so strong that that's the only possibility. Our world becomes a black and white absolute world. I'm either good or I'm bad.
I'm either okay, I'm not okay. Like Tom said, I'm either got a chance or I'm hopeless.
And see, there's nothing in between those two extremes.
And see, that's the problem. Either I have this and this is where false pride comes. I'm behaving the way I should. I'm a good boy or a good girl. I'm doing the things I should. But as soon as I do something that steps outside, let's say being a good boy means to me never saying something that is going to upset somebody else. But let's say I get upset about something and I say something to somebody else and they get mad at me. I start hating myself because I said it.
You see, that's what happens with this. So there's no possibility of what we talk about as accepting ourselves. We can't accept ourselves. We have those kind of rules.
[00:25:15] Speaker C: It just occurred to me in terms of the stuff that I've really gotten from you of late, Alan, in terms of the conditional, the danger of the conditional based on what you're saying. It popped into my head, said that therefore, in terms of. Because what I'm doing with my emotional sobriety is either going to be supportive or not supportive or not very strong to support my, my recovery from addiction.
[00:25:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:25:37] Speaker C: It's like the truth is, and I realize this is right at the top of my website at this point, I need the way you need to do that. This, that's not conditional is even on the days that I hate myself, which there are still days, those days and that guy still lives there. And so it may not be a 100, but even on days that I hate myself, I don't drink, I don't use. It's not. Because that was, that would be the condition if I'm. If I, if I'm this depressed or if I feel this bad. And that's what I wrote in the, on the beginning of my website, which is forget about self love because that's, that's a little too shaky for me.
Self respect is definable doing, doing what I say I'm going to do, you know, stepping up and, and being, you know, so I can I can have a bad day and if I'm learning something, that's what my, I base my respect on is if I'm learning something from this, then I have self respect. I can even hate myself on that day and stay sober because I'm not basing it on, on that, on I want to.
Self love is fine. Love, self love is good. But, but it's for me, it's not constant. It's not, it's not a constant. And it is shaky at times still. So I, that can't be the measure of whether I'm going to be recovering or not.
Some days are just.
[00:26:54] Speaker A: What's that rocking line? I love, I love that Rocky line that you've quoted from the movie Rocky many times. It's not how hard.
[00:27:01] Speaker C: Oh, it's not how hard you, it's how hard you can hit. It's how hard you can get it. And keep getting back up. That's right.
[00:27:09] Speaker A: Keep moving forward. Keep moving forward.
[00:27:11] Speaker C: That's it.
[00:27:11] Speaker A: Moving forward.
Keep moving forward. See, I, I now, you know the way I've simplified this idea of differentiation. Differentiation is about mo forward.
That's the life force. It's just moving forward. You got to keep moving forward.
That's what, that's what Emotional sobriety in a nutshell. Here's a new nutshell with some Emotional sobriety is about moving forward.
[00:27:33] Speaker C: Forward. Yep.
[00:27:34] Speaker A: Is no matter what. Moving forward.
[00:27:37] Speaker C: Right. Because the information we get when we're, when we're not, when we're stuck in some way is that some, you know, that tells us we don't have to, we don't have to know what it is exactly in that moment, but we have to say, okay, that's a problem. And the problem is I'm missing something.
[00:27:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:52] Speaker C: And I, and I need, I need. And probably that means, for me, probably means I need to talk to you guys or somebody else to get, get, you know, use the two heads are better than mine approach.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: I do want to stop and really put a shout out to all of the armed forces, all of our men and women that are in harm's way today because there are many people and regardless of how you feel about the war that we're involved in, they are out there obeying orders and they put themselves in harm's way for us and they are, in their way, defending our country. So please take a minute and put them in your prayers. And a specific shout out to Staff Sergeant Catherine Preston, who's in Tel Aviv at the embassy, and she's now in the next few days going to be doing patrols because of the threat is so high in terms of what's just happened and how this is escalating very, very quickly.
So, you know, God bless all of you. You're in our thoughts, you're in our prayers, and may our love be, you know, somehow a blanket that protects you all and those.
[00:29:06] Speaker B: Those in harm's way on. On the other side, too. I want. I want to extend my love to. And sympathy.
[00:29:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
Soon as we humans figure out that we shouldn't be killing each other, that then things are going to take to
[00:29:21] Speaker A: make a big turn in the right direction, Sam.
