We Are More Capable Than We Realize

[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to emotional sobriety, the next step in Recovery. With Dr. Alan Berger and Tom Rutledge. I'm going back to couples therapy. It's all about negotiating apartment space. Honestly, that's why we're going back to therapy is because we're back in the. In the zone of anxiety over. Did I move a cup over here when it's supposed to be over there? And different, you know, permutations of that. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Well, especially if you handle space differently. Which d. I do. It's, you know, it's a very important thing. It's. But the key is his, hers, and ours. Everybody needs to have their own space. I don't care how small it is. Everybody has to have their stuff, and they can do whatever the they want. And we don't get to move it. We don't get to complain about it. We don't get to do any of that stuff. [00:00:51] Speaker A: I don't know if you intended it this way, but when you told me, like, a few months back, you said something like, nobody wants to go to couples therapy. [00:00:59] Speaker B: Oh, God, no. No. [00:01:01] Speaker A: But there was something liberating in that. There was something liberating about it. [00:01:03] Speaker B: Just like every. Everybody should be validated. I think women would agree, but I don't know that I know. I've never met a man who would dis. Who would disagree with that. It's like. It's like going to the goddamn principal's office. [00:01:17] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:01:18] Speaker B: It's like you, You. You. You know, you're. You know, you're in trouble, but you don't know what it is, you know, And. And it's like, you know. [00:01:26] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so knowing that and kind of, I. I feel like I can just go ahead and do it and release myself from the expectation that it's not. Not going to be a principal's office business. But. Maybe. But, you know, I do get something out of it. I mean, in the long run, I feel like I do get. [00:01:43] Speaker B: It's always. Yeah, we've. Because we've never stayed with the therapist. It wasn't any good. But so we always had. Really. I mean. And the one we spent the most time with, we. I mean, credit her for saving lots of my. My marriage. It's like, yeah, but it's just, you know, talk about something you don't control. You know, you. You can. You actually control your own therapy. You. Even if you. If your therapist decides he wants you to think about something else, it's like, you don't have to. [00:02:16] Speaker A: Hey, you're wearing a. A fish. Shirt. [00:02:20] Speaker C: Yeah. A Trey Anastasia. Nice. [00:02:23] Speaker A: Did you go, did you go see that? [00:02:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:02:25] Speaker A: Did you go see him? I've got a Tom nutshell. We can maybe kick things off with. Live this moment as if you chose it might as well. And maybe you did because when I [00:02:35] Speaker B: was younger I would speak to people and I would, and I would tell them how the universe worked because I knew how the universe worked but apparently I forgot along the way. And I do not have any clue. I have ideas, I have fantasies, I have thoughts about it. And it's like. And, and I might even some days have belief that hey, I think this is. But ultimately and, and this is. I mean I don't know if this is an emotional sobriety thing or just a good advice for human beings. Is that just that humility that, that beginner's mind where we go like, you know, we need to proceed by, by the choices we make with belief systems, but we don't need to latch on to something and, and well, it is emotional sobriety because if we, if we, if we latch on too tight, what doing is setting ourselves up with an expectation oriented disappointment. [00:03:31] Speaker C: You know, one of the things that, that you're suggesting Tom and I, I've been thinking about this a lot is that our expectations are an attempt to control our reality. Absolutely right. That's, that's what. And, and it's, it's back based on this big lie that, that we're really challenging a lot with emotional sobriety. You don't need things to be the way you think you need them to be. Okay. I mean, and that's so short in terms of our ability to be able to cope and cope creatively and adapt to an incredible range of different challenging situations. I mean we see that with like the work of Frankel. Right. In terms fans for meaning when he talks about what he witnessed in these concentration camps is that men were able to find a way through that difficulty and use the experience to grow themselves spiritually. Pretty remarkable. I mean if we can adapt to those conditions. Right, right. [00:04:38] Speaker A: Because what could be further away from his expectation about how his life would be? [00:04:43] Speaker B: Franco ruins it for everybody. You know, I've always thought with, with, with, with aa. You know, I've noticed there were times complaining about something and then I realized the guy sitting across from me has dealt with so much worse and has such a better attitude. And Frankel, just the extreme of that, it's like, like I can't, I can't survive this. Oh yeah. You know, let me introduce you to [00:05:08] Speaker C: somebody and I think that's it. It's that. It, to me, that provides so much hope is that we are so much more capable than we realize. Yes, you've seen that, Tom. I mean, you. I help people discover that in the work I do, and I know you do, too, because we know people discover that there are possibilities that you aren't aware of, that if you can discover them, you can find a way to get to. Okay, I'm okay. Even if things are not the way I want them to be. [00:05:37] Speaker B: Favorite. My favorite source or one of my favorite sources for that is Christopher Reeve. I'm. And I'm pretty sure it was his first interview after his accident. He. Quite a while since his accident, but one of the things he said, he said, so many people tell me, you know, I couldn't do what you're doing. And he said. And he said, and if you haven't listened to his book, I suggest you listen audible, because he reads it even with his breath thing and everything. His first book is called Still Me, and it's. I get chills even when I'm talking about it. But in that situation, he just says, you cannot know until you're here. You just can't. [00:06:18] Speaker C: Yes. [00:06:19] Speaker B: It's not like it's an idea that you might not. He said, like, he said. He said, there is no way. And you can just tell in his voice how much he means this. He says, there's no way that I would think I could do it at all. [00:06:31] Speaker A: Well, and I'll just add a little complicating factor here is that. And, you know, this is not too much tales told out of school. I'll leave the details out. But, you know, I have an ex that I was struggling with last year, and I've talked about it with you guys, and I've also been on the other side. The shoe's been on the other foot where, like, I'm just trying to help someone and I'm. And I'm working with someone or just trying to support someone, and they're just not getting it. The people aren't machines. They aren't switches. You can't. You have. I have no control over that, but it can. You can worry at something like that for a really long time and. And it. And it doesn't always pan out or people can work their whole lives at this. This is like one of the different, most difficult shifts that any of us could have to make. And I had to make it in my own recovery at a certain point. And I. And you know, there's no one that [00:07:21] Speaker B: causes it, not somebody else's life is not up to us. And, and to me. I just want to say this real quick because it's like. And I'm not picking on you just because I think. But you just give a great example what happens when you get stuck like that. You focus on that other person not doing what they need to do. And if you, if you pan back, you go, oh, there. I. I'm. I'm gonna be okay as soon as that guy listens to me, you know? You know, and it's like, nope. I mean, no, you. No matter what you're into, you can pan back far enough to where you'll get them, where you see, where do. Where do I need to change? And then it may or may not help your client. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it'll help the person because you, because you. You let go of that. But. And it's not a matter we can't understand. We don't control the video. But I think this case is like, it's none of our business what people do. [00:08:16] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, and that's the, that's the change I need to make, or that's the adjustment I needed to make is to kind of let go from controlling that situation. Yeah. And. And I did. And you know, but, but yeah, I mean, it's, I think emotional sobriety. It's not going to come on. It's not going to come on the clock that we prefer. [00:08:37] Speaker B: No, let's get that into a nutshell. [00:08:43] Speaker C: Let's get that in a nutshell. [00:08:49] Speaker A: Okay. [00:08:49] Speaker C: That into a nutshell is right. [00:08:51] Speaker B: Love it. That's great. [00:08:52] Speaker A: Well, I really like this one. And for me, this, this ties back to adding more self, which I noticed we've been talking. You've been talking about on the workshops lately. Give yourself permission to doubt. Give yourself permission to disagree. Give yourself permission to decide. Add more self. And you wrote that in your nutshell omnibus, Tom. And. Or that's what I've called it. And [00:09:20] Speaker B: I guess that's a lot. That's an oldie. And by the way, the last line you put in there is Alan's, not mine. I, I did. I don't want anybody thinking I'm trying to steal from Alice. [00:09:29] Speaker A: No, I welded some Allen on there. [00:09:31] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. That's a. That's. That's a. That's a. That's a co. Written. [00:09:35] Speaker C: I. In terms of this stuff, I think our ideas have merged together so much, I and Tom, so I don't ever feel that man. I feel that you've, you've sweetened the pot so many times and I hope I've sweetened your pot. And I absolutely incorporated each other concepts. [00:09:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, you know, and the, and the truth is there, there is. From the very moment we started working together accidentally back in, back in the day, we did an accidental workshop. And it's like we have. We began to discover how. How similar we are in that way. And here's the thing that we can talk about some other time in all the years since. What I've also learned is how we're different. You know, the, the different way. How we. How we really think. Sometimes not. Sometimes a little different, but sometimes now we're kind of. Kind of very different there. And it's like I love how that all stays together, learn from each other. That's one of the things I know you and I have been doing for years now. [00:10:34] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:10:34] Speaker A: What really helps a working relationship is impassioned points of view but that don't like butt heads with each other too much. Well, or just a healthy amount. Yeah. [00:10:44] Speaker B: And sometimes because I'm beginning to have this relationship with my partner here in the office, Beth. And you know, Beth Patrick, it's like, like because we both do have done eating disorder work forever and it's like, it's. It becomes like a bout and Alan and reminds me of some, some of the work Alan I've done because we'll. We'll be talking and one of us will say something that go like. We kind of puzzled for a minute and go like, oh. And then it's. And then you get the next piece, you know. Oh yeah. If that's true, we could try this. [00:11:17] Speaker C: It's. It's. [00:11:18] Speaker A: Well, there might. There might be a way of me kind of clarifying this nutshell or kind of like, you know, pointing it more towards the theme is I think having the courage of your own point of [00:11:28] Speaker C: view [00:11:30] Speaker A: is what comes up when I read give yourself permission to doubt. Give yourself permission to disagree. Give yourself permission. Permission to decide. I can only, you know, like relate this to my own experience in recovery. It's taken me years to get my self esteem up to a place where I feel like I can state my point of view and I could stand by it or clearly articulate it and to even have a self to add to the goings on in my daily life. And yeah, and I think, you know, that definitely relates to emotional sobriety very much. [00:12:08] Speaker B: I just want to add part when I wrote that too. I want people to know you can disagree with Yourself, you know, that we don't. And because we, Our culture kind of says if you have a disagreement, especially within yourself, you have to resolve it. You have to decide. But if you understand that we're multiple, not singular, I can, I can walk. I mean, how many times do you say something? And everybody does this. If you listen, it's like they'll say. And then immediately they go, yeah, but it's like what you, you know, because we're. The way we're listening to. We say we just saw one guy talk and the other guy kind of came in and maybe even just said, nah, and then gave a different perspective. It's not. That's fine. You can have all that inside your own mind and be, you know, or like I say, pass for saying, yeah, [00:12:58] Speaker C: right on, right on. [00:13:00] Speaker A: I'm always, when I'm always worried how I look when I don't arrive with certainty, you know, like, I think people. I think, I think I always have this, like, you know, this worry that people aren't going to take me seriously unless, like, no, I'm sure about this. And, you know, I, you know, and I think that's true to an extent. You know, you got to be clear and strong, you know, in the way you communicate with people. But. And I think it's gotten better over time. But, yeah, definitely. And, and by the way, the kind of paradox of that is like, thinking of myself in the third person too much always makes me more awkward and, you know, messes with my ability to communicate. And, you know, that's why what's. What's helped with my pitches in AA is that I have. I had a friend tell me if you angle it towards a newcomer or if you kind of treat it less like, I need to find the most wise and spiritual thing to say that's going to be helpful to people. And just look, focusing inwards so much, if I just really think about, put it on the outside, think about the person that's on the most on the outskirts or like, what, What. You know, how can I help? And just like, you know, personify this person, you know, and talk to them and what would you say to them to try and bring them in? He said that it usually comes out better, the pitch. And then since then, they have come out better, but it's all. It hasn't. It's come from just like, releasing myself from the need to kind of like, sound good and just think more about, yeah, yeah, I'm in conversation with somebody who needs it. [00:14:26] Speaker B: And what's that? What's the name of that book that Irv Yalam wrote where he, he wrote, he wrote notes after the sessions and his client wrote notes after the session. [00:14:35] Speaker C: I don't remember the name of that one. [00:14:37] Speaker B: It's such a. I've done that. [00:14:39] Speaker A: What's his name? [00:14:40] Speaker B: Irv. Irv Yalam. Y A L O M She's amazing. It's, it's like. But I've done that with some clients since I've read that. I've not, not as a regular thing, but sometimes I ask people to bullet point what. What they got from the session. Never ever, ever has has something they put on the bullet point be anything I would think of, I would even think of. I mean. And that's what he found. He found. I love what he put it, he said, he said, I thought this was a great concept and a great metaphor that I had created. And you know, and then I'll use one of my examples recently where somebody said, well, I told you about, I've told you about this thing in my life and I could tell that you didn't judge me. I'm going to read it. I go like that's, that's amazing. But I didn't think it was just me. [00:15:29] Speaker A: Is it Love's Executioner and Other Tales of Psychotherapy? [00:15:32] Speaker B: No, that's not the book. It's, it's, it's. I'll find out. And, and okay, yeah, Alum's got a lot of books. [00:15:42] Speaker A: So what are. So Alan, what are some, some recent thoughts in adding more self you've had or experiences? [00:15:48] Speaker C: Well, God, you know, I can, I can give them to personally trying to get back from Lincoln, Nebraska to, to Pennsylvania. It took 48 hours. [00:16:00] Speaker B: Jesus. [00:16:00] Speaker C: And you know, it was back to this situation where the weather in Chicago was terrible, flights were being canceled left and right. I saw that I wasn't going to get back on my first flight in time to catch my connection. So when they asked for volunteers to go later in the day, I said of course I can. I'm going to be stuck in Chicago anyway. So I decided to go later. So my flight was at 6:00'. Clock. Well, so that meant I was at the airport at, I'd say 5am so I've got 12, 13 hours until 6pm at night. So I just added more self. I said, what do I need? I need some sleep. So I found a corner in the airport. I put my backpack down, put my bag next to me and threw a coat on me and I fell asleep for about two and a half, three Hours. Got up, had some lunch, did some stuff on the computer, listen to some great music. And then the 6 o' clock flight got canceled and United was great. They gave me a hotel room that night and I go into town and I, I decide that, you know, I'm here. What do I, what do I, you know, a massage would be great. And I found a place that gave a massage real close to hotel. So I went and added. I looked for opportunities to take care of myself instead of getting frustrated that this wasn't what I wanted it to be and sitting there in a bunch of, of resentment and annoyance and all of that. And even when I was at the counter dealing with the gal changing my ticket for the next day because I decided to route myself through Denver instead, you know, I had to wait. She had to go deal with other things, close down planes, I mean, things like that. I probably stood there for 35, 40 minutes and she comes back and she says, you know, she goes, I wish everybody was like you. She says, it's so easy to deal with you. She goes, I don't feel any pressure, you know, she says, I just wish that, that everybody could somehow show up like that now. It's like Tom said, I'm not being any different than I am now because of emotional sobriety. [00:18:13] Speaker B: No, if we, if you took her on a time travel backwards, you would, she could, she could see a different guy. [00:18:20] Speaker C: I would be standing there bitching. Right? [00:18:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, it's just, but that's the fun part. You're just being you. [00:18:27] Speaker C: I was just being me and, and I was rolling with it. I was just rolling with it. I, I wanted to go eat at this one place. They didn't, they shut down their food. And I, and I looked at her, says, God, I'm so disappointed. She said, honey, let me make something special for you. I mean, even that kind of stuff, I mean, things were just happening. I just showed up and I was dealing with things that way and it was really, it was okay. I got home the next day at about 7 o', clock, so I traveled for almost 48 hours or more and, and look, I was exhausted. I was fried that night. I mean, you know, I missed a few appointments because I was so hung up in all this travel stuff and everybody understood and I got back and, and I, you know, once again it was this experience of adding more self. Just saying, this is reality, Alan. How do you want to, what's the best way to cope with this? And how are you going to get through this thing? Where you're rolling with the punches, man, rolling with the punches. And that's a big part of emotional sobriety. Sometime, man, we're going to. We're going to get, you know, life is going to take shots at us and a good fighter is going to learn how to roll with the punch. So even if you get hit, you don't take the full impact, right? [00:19:45] Speaker B: Well, it's. It's. I mean, this is something you. You've talked about. I mean, ever since I've been working with you is. Is. And you mentioned it in this. It's like it's one of the. One of the. I guess, methods or techniques of this stuff is always be looking for opportunities. [00:20:02] Speaker C: That's it, man. [00:20:03] Speaker B: Because that's. Because that's. That's one of the first things I ever learned from you. I'm sorry. Go ahead. [00:20:08] Speaker C: Positive opportunism. Isn't that what you call it? [00:20:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's one of our collaborations, isn't it? It's like. [00:20:14] Speaker C: Yeah, see, I. I use that all the time. You're right. There's always opportunities. But if I'm hung up and this shouldn't be happening, I'm not going to see him. I'm not going to find them. [00:20:24] Speaker B: Well, you're sure not going to find somebody. Say, honey, let me make you something special. It's like, like, no, you're not. It's like, it's. You know, it's. The thing is, you make people's day better. See this. This is. You know, a friend of mine called. When he. Referring to me, he said, how's your ministry going? It's like, you know, because, Because, Because I talk about this and it's. It's. And it's also. It's that deal where it's. It's selfish in that sense. It feels really good to be the one person who's not an in. In the crowd and, And. And they. And somebody notices as well. Thank you. And you know, you. They make you feel better. You've made them feel better. You. You know, and everybody else is on their own. [00:21:06] Speaker C: Yep. Right on. Right on, Tom. That's very true. [00:21:10] Speaker B: That's. That, man, that's a. That's a hell of an airport story, though. [00:21:15] Speaker A: I was just thinking it's kind of like the terminal. Do you ever see that movie Tom Hanks where he's just. [00:21:22] Speaker C: I had a sense what that movie might be about. [00:21:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. [00:21:26] Speaker C: It's is those opportunities are around us all the time. See, that's kind of what you were saying. Too, Tom, is that if we really bring this consciousness to our life, we're going to be able to spot those things. Instead of looking at all that isn't. We can start to look at what is. And that's such an important shift in consciousness. [00:21:50] Speaker A: Always remember, Tom, when you sent me that screenplay for the idea when you were getting your cancer treatment, and. And that's some good positive opportunism. You know, you're just between a rock and a hard place with your treatment, [00:22:03] Speaker B: but you're just like chemotherapy. Yeah. [00:22:05] Speaker A: Yeah. What if I wrote a little dream of what this. You know, what could be happening here, you know, and kind of like, dramatize it and. [00:22:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that's it. [00:22:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:14] Speaker B: I don't know if we've ever talked about that, but what was happening to me is I was sitting there and. And just. And I was just writing this mic. I wasn't thinking about writing. I was just making up a story with the people that all. You know, and if you've ever been in a chemotherapy room, I mean, people, lots of. It's a place full of compassion, first of all. And. And I always say it's. It's also a place where. Where. Where you can really learn that it doesn't matter how you dress. You know, cancer patients will teach you how to dress. It doesn't matter. It's like, come, go, go where? Wherever you want in your pajamas. Nobody cares. It's. Yeah, it's just a story. And it's like. And it's like Alan's saying, you. You say. You spot it, tune into that, because it's. It's even. It's always there for us, Sam.